| Sheikizza
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| Curate |
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| Reged: 12/02/02 |
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Since I first
began my studies of the creation myths and the ancient times in
Tamrielic lore, I have pondered what the true motivation of Lorkhan
may have been in convincing many of his et'Ada brethren to help
create the Mundus.
At first this was more a curiousity than
a focus or concern. After all, his motivations mattered little after
the fact...the mundus was created, exists and why is a moot point.
However, as the course of my studies deepens and I begin to try to
trace the history of events that have unfolded in the course of the
past ages, and their meaning, I have grown aware of a disturbing
whisper that has echoed in the back of my mind the entire time,
rising in volume with the more I read, study and learn. That voice
has been telling me that all the events of Nirn and all the plots of
the Aedra and Daedra since the creation of the Mundus are connected
in some unknown way...that there is a thread of deeper purpose and
meaning inside all these events of history, and all the schemes of
Azura and her Daedric Brethren.
I begin to see bits and
parts of a larger picture of creation and the role the Mundus plays
as I dig deeper. I see the Heart of Lorkhan as a central focus of
all these events, from the beginnings of the Mundus, the events Red
Mountain, the disappearance of the Dwemer and the nature of
Karagnec's tools, the use of the Numidium by the Emperor and the
Warp in the West, Azura's curse and the rise and fall of the
Tribunal, the fate of the Heart and the prophesies of end
times...somehow it is all ONE STORY, with one singular pupose and
meaning. And I must discover what it is...
I see several
things as being central to answering this puzzle:
1. What
truly happened to the Dwemer when Karagnec's tools were used on the
Heart?
2. Why was the Tribunal Heresy so important that Azura
sought their destruction?
3. Why could the Aedra not destroy
Lorkhan's heart after it was torn from him?
4. What was the true
nature of the Warp in the West, and what is the nature of the link
between the Underking and the Heart of Lorkhan?
5. Was there a
Warp in the East at the events of Red Mountain?
6. What will be
the result of the Fall of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and the
sundering of their link to the heart?
7. What was the true fate
of the heart when it disappeared from Red Mountain at the hands of
the Neravarine?
In the end, I feel that all of these
questions lead to a more important question that they are but a
partial answer to:
What is the nature of the Heart of
Lorkhan and what is it's true link to the Mundus?
That
question, I feel will answer many of the reasons behind what I see
as a great scheme by the Daedra, and some Aedra to 'undo' the Mundus
and it's creation. But, in order to answer the above question, I
feel we will also need to know a very important thing:
What
was Lorkhan's true motivation in creating the Mundus?
Answering these two central questions I feel will tell us
how and why all these events throughout history are linked, and why
the Daedra are so interested in the Mundus, and so often hostile
towards it.
I feel that in the end, the schemes and plots of
the Daedra (and some Aedra) are to a purpose. That purpose is to
undo or 'un-create' the Mundus...the question is WHY? I believe
everything that the daedra do to influence history, every plot,
every attempted invasion (such as of the battlespire), and the end
times are to that purpose...to undo what Lorkhan began so long ago.
Why can only be answered, I feel, if we know why the Mundus was
first created...what was Lorkhan thinking? Does the Mundus pose a
danger to existence? Did Lorkhan upset some delicate balance by
creating the Mundus? I don't know...I only have questions and
suspiscions...but the need to know the answer grows on me each day.
I would like to know what each of you feel was Lorkhan's
motivation in the creation of the Mundus? What is the link between
his Heart and Nirn? Is it Truly the 'Heart of the World' as he
claimed when it was pulled from his chest, and what would that mean?
Are the Daedra ploting to overcome the Mundus and 'un-make' it, and
if so, why?
These questions have come to haunt me in recent
weeks and months and I feel a need to unravel this mystery.
Hopefully with your help.
Goddess Bless,
Sheikizza
Icemane
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets
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| evelian
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| Disciple |
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| Reged: 06/17/02 |
| Posts: 1781 |
| Loc: Michigan, USA | |
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Wow. Great
post.
After reading that, a thought came to mind.
-I'd almost believe the Daedra need the heart for whatever
plans they have (or require it's destruction). When Sotha Sil made
the deal with them, it seems ridiculous to think that the Daedra
lords would fear him or the Tribunal enough to agree to his
terms...unless he could use the heart as a leverage? Like I said,
just a thought that could add to the importance of the Heart and a
link to the Daedra in some way.
--------------------
I
too once thought the radio played
Let's act like children while
we sleep paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild
Member~
Edited by evelian (05/08/03
08:37 PM)
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| Sheikizza
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| Curate |
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evelian,
Yes, I had considered that as well. In fact, I feel that we
may yet discover that the real reason that Azura began the chain of
events that brought the Neravarine to destroy the Tribunal (ending
the daedric pact with Sotha Sil?) and banishing (destroying?) the
Heart of Lorkhan may have been explicitly to rid the Mundus of the
heart and break the pact so that the daedra could invade Nirn and
'undo' it.
Thus, the Neravarine may have been 'used' as a
means to 'destroy' the Heart that the Daedra could not do on their
own and end the Tribunal's interefernce (and the pact) so that the
Daedra could bring about the end times and the un-making of the
Mundus...
Thoughts?
Sheikizza Icemane
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets
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| evelian
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| Disciple |
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| Reged: 06/17/02 |
| Posts: 1781 |
| Loc: Michigan, USA | |
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Regarding this
specific point, I think your 7th question about the fate of the
Heart holds the most importance here. Assuming Azura had alterior
motives for her punishment of the Tribunal (and I fully believe
there are underlying motives), then the current state of the Heart
would be very important - Destroyed: The heart must have kept the
Daedra from coming forth to mundus - oh, wait, what if the Heart had
some special tie to the world itself...
hehe...I was going to
try to explain more, but it would require making a lot of
assumptions I'd rather not make. It's so hard to get anywhere with
the pieces of the puzzle you mentioned missing. All the pieces
intersect, one requires another, so it's impossible to see any of
the larger picture. We can only make assumtions and guesses. I think
I'll retract my first statement about the 7th question being the
most important. They're nearly all equally important in each case.
Which is where I can definately see where you're coming from with an
underlying thread that ties everything together. There's definately
something; it's constantly hinted at, but just unattainable.
--------------------
I too once thought the radio
played
Let's act like children while we sleep paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild Member~
Edited by evelian (05/08/03 08:58 PM)
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| B |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 11/10/01 |
| Posts: 1570 |
| Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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My views are
heavily influenced by those of the Psijic Order. My personal belief
is that the Mundus is a proving ground for the afterlife. Men and
mer reproduce and live out their lives. A select few “great
individuals” transcend the Mundus when they die. Those spirits who
were benevolent on Mudus go one way; spirits who were malevolent go
the other. Each side is collecting warriors, so to speak: The Aedra
are creating their “army” and the Daedra are doing the same.
Eventually, the two sides will meet.
In addition, the two
sides seem to "feed" off their worshipers. The more people who
worship them, the more powerful they become (An Overview Of Gods and Worship In Tamriel). I
think the Daedra Princes need the Mundus more than some might think.
The Psijic Order believes it is their job to influence this
process:
In reply to:
Primarily, it is easy to grasp the necessity both of endowing
good men with great power and making powerful men good. We
recognize the multiple threats that a strong tyrant represents --
breeds cruelty which feeds the Daedra Boethiah and hatred which
feeds the Daedra Vaernima; if he should die having performed a
particularly malevolent act, he may go to rule in Oblivion; and
worst of all, he inspires other villains to thirst after power and
other rulers to embrace villainy. Knowing this, we have developed
patience in our dealings with such despots. They should be
crippled, humiliated, impoverished, imprisoned... (The Old Ways)
They use the force of change to their advantage:
In reply to:
In Mundus, conflict and disparity are what bring change, and
change is the most sacred of the Eleven Forces. Change is the
force without focus or origin. It is the duty of the disciplined
Psijic [“Enlightened One”] to dilute change where it brings greed,
gluttony, sloth, ignorance, prejudice, cruelty...[here Taheritae
lists the rest of the 111 Prodigalities], and to encourage change
where it brings excellence, beauty, happiness, and enlightenment.
As such, the faithful counsel has but one master: His mind. If the
man the Psijic counsels acts wickedly and brings oegnithr [“bad
change”] and will otherwise not be counselled, it is the Psijic's
duty to counterbalance the oegnithr by any means necessary
[emphasis mine]. (The Old Ways)
Perhaps my entire view is wrong. Perhaps men and mer
can never transcend the gods who created them. Perhaps we are
nothing more than "religious batteries" to recharge the gods.
Lorkhan brought about the Mundus to create chaos or change
in a system of order. Perhaps he is trying to upset the status quo
and overthrow those of whom he does not approve. His Heart is
definitely the key to it all:
In reply to:
But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of
Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of
the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel
fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea,
where no aspect of the new world may ever find it. (The Monomyth)
Well, we know that last part isn't true 
.
--------------------
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer
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1. What truly
happened to the Dwemer when Karagnec's tools were used on the Heart?
AG: I take the opinion of Baladas Demnevanni on this one,
they retreated behind the active principle itself. But they do still
exist on Mundus, just as a force, and that force was partly
responsible for the 'madness' of Dagoth Ur. This is just an
un-substantiated current theory for me though, and is subject to
change!
2. Why was the Tribunal Heresy so important that
Azura sought their destruction?
AG: Azura was afraid. Her
fear turned into anger. Her angered caused the Tribunal to fall,
eventually. The Tribunal became powerful, they no longer needed
Azura and the others to lead them. It is my assumption that when
these spirits are no longer believed they cannot affect anything on
mundus. They have to affect the mundus 'through' mortals, so if no
one believes in them, they do not exist.
3. Why could the
Aedra not destroy Lorkhan's heart after it was torn from him?
AG: I'm sure they could have, but maybe they had pity for
him. Maybe Anuiel loved him. I cannot say for sure, myth is not my
cup of tea.
4. What was the true nature of the Warp in the
West, and what is the nature of the link between the Underking and
the Heart of Lorkhan?
AG: The Warp in the West was caused by
the Mis-use of Numidium, a Dwemeri artifact that was meant to
control time. Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are obviously not as
superior sorcerers or mage-crafters as the Dwemer were, so accidents
and miscalculations were bound to happen. I am not aware of a
connection between the Underking and Lorkhan's Heart.
5. Was
there a Warp in the East at the events of Red Mountain?
AG:
No, the accounts of the battle of Red Mountain are all from
different view-points of the same thing, so as the legends are told
and written down through time they get changed a little here and
there, which eventually gives them all a different account, based on
a culmination of small errors. The only account of that encounter to
take seriously is Vivec's. As we all know he was there. The last
living Dwemer would talk, if he could.
6. What will be the
result of the Fall of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and the sundering
of their link to the heart?
AG: The Tribunal are mortal
again, and there will be a merging of the Dissidant Priests and the
Temple. They will eventually go back to their previous worship of
their ancestors and the Good Daedra. Or so they like to call them.
Or maybe this new 'End of times Cult' will become popular.
7. What was the true fate of the heart when it disappeared
from Red Mountain at the hands of the Neravarine?
AG: I will
put something from Vivec's own 'Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur':
"The normal procedure for establishing connection with the
Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the
Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure
tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the
blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades.
These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the
wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature.
The Nerevarine will not be taught the secret rituals
required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will
strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones
to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated
strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the
ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original
enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links
with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the
Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also
stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the
Blight on Morrowind."
I do not think that the Heart actually
'Disappearing' was foreseen by Vivec, and actually I think you were
just supposed to break the enchantments binding the heart. So I
think that once the enchantments binding the heart were broken,
something or someone 'took' the heart away or stole it. Could the
Daedra steal the heart? Did Lorkhan take his heart back? Or
something else? I don't think we will know for sure.
Lorkhan
created the Mundus because he wanted to make his father proud,
although those he tricked were not pleased. I see Lorkhan as another
Anu, and the chaos of the rest, Padomay. Just on a microcosmic
level. Then again, I suck at myths. Take this as you will.
I
think it is possible that the Daedra would overtake Mundus, even if
only to un-make its folly. If they do, me and Lord Divayth Fyr have
a lot to discuss.
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I would gladly
give you my theories on your questions, but people will just get mad
at me again.
--------------------
Imperial Legion:
Knight of the Imperial Dragon
Imperial Cult: Patriarch
Fighter's Guild: Master
Telvanni: Archmagister
The One
True Nerevarine
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| Bifrost
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| Layman |
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In reply to:
4. What was the true nature of the Warp in the West, and what
is the nature of the link between the Underking and the Heart of
Lorkhan?
In "Where were you when the Dragon broke?"
Mannimarco claim that Arctus is Ysmir/Wulfheart/Pelinal/etc., the
immortal hero who has wandered Nirn since the first recording of
time. Moreover, he suggests that he has discovered some real
identity of this god-like hero.
During the Warp of the West
the King of Worms uses the Mantellan Crux to ascend to godhood.
While we know little of this Mantellan Crux , the Underking
(claiming to be Zurin Arctus) himself said it contained his soul or
essence.
I would guess that the power of the Mantellan Heart
came from whatever it contained, not the item itself.
This would
imply that Arctus were no mere mortal, which leads to the inevitable
question:
Is the Underking the Ghost of a God and no Man?
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1. Through a
loophole it fate, they now live on another plane.
2. The Daedric
Princes wanted the Chimer and Dwemer to worship only them.
3. I
don't have an answer for this one
4. Didn't play Daggerfall
5. No. No. No.
6. The burden of prophecy is removed. The
Daedra will be the only worshipped gods again.
7. Most likely
went to another plane. Might have gone to the plane the Dwemer went
to.
I'm sorry if that offended anyone in any way.
--------------------
Imperial Legion: Knight of the
Imperial Dragon
Imperial Cult: Patriarch
Fighter's Guild:
Master
Telvanni: Archmagister
The One True Nerevarine
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| Striker |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 09/28/00 |
| Posts: 1463 |
| Loc: South Australia, Australia
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There is an
interesting part in the High Elf creation myth:
In reply to:
...With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand
their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or
Mara or Xen. One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a
nature, so he could never last long anywhere.
As he
entered every aspect of Anuiel, Lorkhan would plant an idea that
was almost wholly based on limitation. He outlined a plan to
create a soul for the Aurbis, a place where even the "aspects of
aspects" might be allowed to self-reflect. He gained many
followers; even Auriel, when told he would become the king of the
new world, agreed to help Lorkhan. So they created the Mundus,
where their own aspects might live, and became the et’Ada.
But this was a trick. As Lorkhan knew, this world
contained more limitations than not and was therefore hardly a
thing of Anu at all. Mundus was the House of Sithis...
It looks like Lorkhan made the Mundus to
satisfy his own nature - that of limitation. And Lorkhan became part
of this limit, since he was 'more of a limit' himself. So destroying
the Heart of Lorkhan would be the same as destroying the world, from
what I can tell.
-Striker
--------------------
Destination
Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this
post are not necessarily mine.
Post
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| Nazz |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 02/21/02 |
| Posts: 1247 |
| Loc: Florida | |
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In reply to:
Is the Underking the Ghost of a God and no Man?
Somebodys been reading the hidden messages in
Sermon Zero. 
My personal theory is that the Underking is actually the
melding of two "personas" if you will, one is
Ysmir/Wulfharth/Pelinal the other is Zurin Arctus. It would seem
that the two joined together as told in The Arcturian Heresy, the
part where Zurin tries to effectivly soul trap Wulfharth. They also
must fight for control of their shared body because in Daggerfall
the Underking always said he was Zurin, but the Arcturian Heresy
shows Wulfharth in control and the King of Worms also hints that
Wulfharth is one with Zurin.
--------------------
Life's
not a race.
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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6: Although
Azura was a little peeved at the tribunal, she really wanted to get
the main threat to morrowind out of the way, Dagoth Ur. She is
"Mother Morrowind" after all.
--------------------
____________________________________
Pyschopathic Travel Accesory
Member of the Forum Scholar's
Guild specialising in Ebony, Daedra Gender and Avakir
The
Tribunal are not Evil, Godammit!
Post
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| Sheikizza
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| Curate |
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EDIT: I
originally began to respond to each point by each poster...but I
have had a change of heart, and have deleted my first response. I
feel, as many of my own opinions and theories beyond what is stated
briefly above are still developing and forming, that I shall not
expound upon them here just yet...
The true purpose of this
thread for me was to HEAR what each of you thought of these issues
and questions, not for me to speak of my as yet not fully formed
theories. Thus, I will eagerly await each reply and attempt to
digest what is offered rather than debate it. I may have questions,
but only to clarify your own views in my understanding.
I do
find it interesting that among the views so far rendered, none are
in line with my own proto-theory...which is noteworthy to me, but
not unduly of concern at this point.
I eagerly await the
replies and wish to thank all who have, or will respond to this call
for ideas and understanding.
Sheikizza Icemane
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost
and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of
Dark Secrets
Edited by
Sheikizza (05/09/03 05:56 PM)
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In reply to:
1. Through a loophole it fate, they now live on another
plane.
7. Most likely went to another plane. Might have gone
to the plane the Dwemer went to.
What supports your theory here? How is it a
loophole in fate? What documentation you can read in Morrowind leads
to this conclusion? The material I read implies they were destroyed,
or they transcended to another level of being. Vivec says he can
sense no trace of them, and his consciousness is a bit transcendent
itself. Of course, he may be lying, but what would it serve to do so
on this point?
In reply to:
5. No. No. No.
"That's not argument, that's just
contradiction."
I wish I had a better sense of your
objection to this than those you've offered so far. Most of them
seem to boil down to "I don't like it, and you shouldn't try to talk
about it." What is it about the events at Red Mountain that make you
think it could not possibly have happened?
Alastor has
reasons and references for his own disagreement (although I don't
find them convincing or conclusive in denying the possibility).
The problem with discussion is that it requires give and
take. Simply saying "No, this didn't happen this way," or "yes, this
is unequivocally what happened" leaves little room to actually
address what you're saying. This is likely part of the reason people
don't really give your posts much attention, and react poorly when
they do. Coming around and just saying "You're wrong" or even "this
is wrong" and repeating it over and over gets nowhere.
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tegger
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| Creepy ShadowLady |
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| Reged: 09/11/02 |
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I think Kali
is right. You're opinions are as valid as anyone else's, but it's
hard to respond to what appears to be brief assertions of
"facts" (which may or may not be the case as you present them). If
you could present them as your theories/opinions, and expound a bit
upon your reasons, it would give folks some room to discuss it. 
--------------------
Every January 26th
since 1996 I remember that I actually did something right.
~TSL
)O(
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| Sheikizza
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| Curate |
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B,
As
a clarification of how you view the Psijic doctrines, I have a
question:
What, in your opinion, is the nature of man and
mer? Meaning, do you see man and mer as created, or as decended? Do
you believe that man and mer are merely a part of a larger spiritual
whole, or are they seperated from spirit by the Mundus?
In
our real world this has always been the key point that sperated most
western religions (like Judeo-Islamic-Christianity, etc...) from the
eastern religions (like Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, etc...) and I
see it also as an important factor in TES lore as well.
The
Monomyth states that the Aldmeri view is that creation of the Mundus
severed the link of mortals to spirit...yet also says that the
Aldmeri believe that they are the decendants of the Gods themselves.
This seems an odd mixture of the two earthly views and I have a hard
time reconciling it. Not created and yet seperate from the
whole...to me that is contridictory and illogical.
Your
thoughts on the Psijic views of this point would be appreciated.
Sheikizza
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA
ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient
Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets
Post Extras: |
| Sheikizza
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| Curate |
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Alastor,
In reply to:
AG: The Warp in the West was caused by the Mis-use of Numidium,
a Dwemeri artifact that was meant to control time. Tiber Septim
and Zurin Arctus are obviously not as superior sorcerers or
mage-crafters as the Dwemer were, so accidents and miscalculations
were bound to happen. I am not aware of a connection between the
Underking and Lorkhan's Heart.
Does this mean that you do not believe there is
any connection between the Mantella and the Heart of Lorkhan?
If the Numidium was designed to be powered by the heart of
Lorkhan when the Dwemer priests created it, and the Mantella was
able (even if only partially) to operate the brass god, then how can
that be explained if not by some link between the Mantella and the
Heart? I have always seen that a connection must be
there...otherwise the Numidium would not have worked at all, as I
can understand it.
If no link exists between the Mantella
and the Heart of Lorkhan then the success of the Mantella to operate
the Numidium suggests to me only two possible answers:
1. The
Dwemer were utterly confused when they created the Numidium and the
Heart was not needed, but rather some other power source that was
also in the Mantella. This seems very unlikely to me as they were
it's creators...if they did not understand it, who would?
2. Any
powerful soul could be used to power the Numidium and Lorkhan's
heart had nothing to do with it at all, and people have utterly
misunderstood any implied or written connection between the Heart
and Numidium. This also seems totally unbelievable to me, as it
seems very clear from all the Dwemer did, and from Dagoth Ur's plans
to create a second Numidium (Akulakhan) that the Heart WAS needed
and linked to this brass god.
As well, if we believe the
King of Worms when he claims to have attained a similar state of
'godhood' by using the Mantella as what the Tribunal has done with
using Lorkhan's heart, then does this not imply and necessitate a
link between the two?
I would be very interested in hearing
your views on these issues, as I cannot explain the use of the
Numidium by Tiber Septim to forge the empire if the Mantella did not
have some link to or share some aspect of the Heart of Lorkhan. (I
have my own theory of WHAT that link is, but shall not expound upon
it now as it gets into who the Underking, Wulfharth, and Arctus
really are and is not a fully-formed theory as yet).
Sheikizza
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA
ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient
Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets
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| Sheikizza
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8thHouseKalamer,
In reply to:
Through a loophole it fate, they now live on another plane.
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean
by this, or in what respect you you use the word 'fate'. Perhaps if
you could elaborate on this particular point for me, so that I might
understand better exactly what you propose? What is the loophole you
refer to, and what do you mean by 'fate'? What 'plane' do you see
them being in?
Also, do you believe that what happened to
them was their intention? Or was the effects of the use of the tools
unexpected for them?
I appreciate the contribution...
Sheikizza
--------------------
SHEIKIZZA
ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient
Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets
Edited by Sheikizza (05/09/03 06:51 PM)
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| evelian
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| Disciple |
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In reply to:
I would be very interested in hearing your views on these
issues, as I cannot explain the use of the Numidium by Tiber
Septim to forge the empire if the Mantella did not have some link
to or share some aspect of the Heart of Lorkhan. (I have my own
theory of WHAT that link is, but shall not expound upon it now as
it gets into who the Underking, Wulfharth, and Arctus really are
and is not a fully-formed theory as yet).
It is my personal belief that this character(s)
is indeed Lorkhan, or what remains of him. If it's true, the
connection between the Mantella and the Heart itself is profound.
But if this were true, I cannot find exactly how his actions in the
mortal plane coincide with his original motivations and the aspect
of limitation.
--------------------
I too once thought
the radio played
Let's act like children while we sleep
paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild Member~
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| evelian
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| Disciple |
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Additionally,
I'd like to post this. I know we've probably all read it, but in
light of the current discussion, there is merit in re-reading it:
In reply to:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of
it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also
called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our
kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.
The first to see him was
the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal
architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that
Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a
refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and
the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he
would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create
Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater.
Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella,
the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time
coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they
were removed from this world.
The second to see the Brass
God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin
Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber
Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment
of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum
Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the
Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum
went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant
half of its soul.
And what of the Warp in the West, where
it is said six Anumiduma were seen in six different places at
once, each one carving out a different mortal's destiny? We could
see that High Rock is unified no more, that the flags of Nova
Orsinium are real, that the Sload Priests talk to their new God of
Worms, and none of them serve the sick heir of the Septim line; we
could see all this and know that it is true. This Warp is but a
realization of the trap that is the Gray Maybe, and that champion
of release, the Brass God, has but reminded us again what the
failure of his misuse means in the Arena Mundus.
I'm still thinking about it...and I'm sure
someone will post better theories than mine before I finish them
anyways 
--------------------
I too once thought the radio
played
Let's act like children while we sleep paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild Member~
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| tegger
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| Creepy ShadowLady |
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Evelian, from
what document did you quote in that post? I've probably seen it
before, but it must have been some time ago, as I don't remember it.
I'd like to read (or re-read) it in its entirety.
--------------------
Every January 26th
since 1996 I remember that I actually did something right.
~TSL
)O(
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| evelian
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Here you go.
The part I took is a ways down there.
--------------------
I too once thought the radio
played
Let's act like children while we sleep paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild Member~
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| tegger
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| Creepy ShadowLady |
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Thanks!
--------------------
Every January 26th
since 1996 I remember that I actually did something right.
~TSL
)O(
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| evelian
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| Disciple |
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The following
is assuming the text is truth, which I will do for now, or it will
be too hard (for me) to analize by itself.
The Prime
Gestalt: Not sure what this means exactly...the definition for
gestalt is: 'a configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a
whole that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts.'
He was meant to be used many times by our kind to
transcend the Gray Maybe. The first to see him...: Is
this to say that perhaps Lorkhan included a loophole to get out of
Mundus? Also, it says Kagrenac was the first to SEE him. This could
be a figure of speech, meaning he was the first to discover the
"loophole" (for lack of a better term).
and the world
shuddered as they split: If Lorkhan were in fact the Underking,
or as described here, the Enantiomorph, than this line would seem to
hold a little importance.
the Anumidum went berserk and
created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.
: I can think of a hundred possibilities to what this could
mean, so I think I'll leave it alone.
The last paragraph
seems to make the connection to the Warp in the West and the Heart.
This Warp is but a realization of the trap that is the Gray
Maybe, and that champion of release, the Brass God, has but reminded
us again what the failure of his misuse means in the Arena
Mundus. The Heart and the Mantella of Arctus' soul both were
able to create profound effects. As a side note, the phrasing Arena
Mundus, in my mind, supports B's earlier stated theory.
I have a lot more thoughts on the matter, but not anything
that makes enough sense to post.
--------------------
I too once thought the radio
played
Let's act like children while we sleep paralyzed
-dredg
~Forum Scholars Guild Member~
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| Nazz |
| Disciple |
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Ok here is my
take on your questions:
1. I still haven't come to a
conclusion on that one to many of the possiblities seem too
plausable IMO to decide right now.
2. I don't think it was their
heresy that was important. I think she wants them gone because they
along with Dagoth Ur are a threat to the Daedras power.
3.
Because I believe that the heart of Lorkhan is truly the heart of
the world its destruction would mean the end of Nirn and the Aedra
with it.
4. I think the warp was caused by the use of the Totem
of Tiber Septim being used by someone it was not designed to be used
by. I don't know if there is a link except that the part of the
underking that is Wulfharth, see my first post, wants Lorkhan to
regain his heart.
5. I would say its possible
6. Death and
destruction
7. It was returned to Lorkhan where ever he is.
--------------------
Life's not a race.
Keeper of
the Gate to Oblivion
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| B |
| Disciple |
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Sheikizza,
I must thank you for being kind to my previous post. After I
posted it and read through it a few hours later, I realized that my
words really didn’t contribute to you initial post. In fact, they
seemed to be slightly off topic...and for that I apologize.
Let me continue by saying that I am pleased that you
tolerate my words. I think I know a little bit about how you feel
about the Psijic Order’s beliefs and their similarities to Humanism.
I know very little about Humanism for I have just start reading up
on that subject, but that is neither here nor there.
From
what I have read, I have found the Psijic Order’s beliefs to be
filled with contradictions. I think that is why I find it to be so
interesting. I cannot figure out if I am missing something or if the
various sources simply don’t mesh. I have spent months trying to
figure out all of what I consider to be discrepancies in the various
doctrines. I have had some luck in my mind, but none of it can be
confirmed through an in-game source; therefore, they cannot be
presented as fact.
I like to view Tamriel through the “eyes”
of the Order. When I present certain beliefs, I am not arguing that
they have it “right.” I am merely stating what I believe the Order
would believe. In truth, the Order may have it all wrong.
Now on to your question:
In reply to:
What, in your opinion, is the nature of man and mer?
Meaning, do you see man and mer as created, or as decended? Do you
believe that man and mer are merely a part of a larger spiritual
whole, or are they seperated from spirit by the Mundus?
This is a good question. I think the answer is a little
of both. In my opinion, I think the Psijic Order believes that they
are related to the divine spirits, but not “permanently” separated.
While on Mundus, I think that members of the Order feel that they
are in a corporal form, but they are still linked to their ancestors
who are always around to guide them (The Old Ways). Could it be similar to some of the
eastern beliefs? China, perhaps (You are more knowledgeable than I
am on this subject). I believe that they believe that in life they
are in contact with the spiritual whole, but more importantly, in
death they can return to the spiritual whole.
In reply to:
The Monomyth states that the Aldmeri view is that creation
of the Mundus severed the link of mortals to spirit...yet also
says that the Aldmeri believe that they are the decendants of the
Gods themselves. This seems an odd mixture of the two earthly
views and I have a hard time reconciling it. Not created and yet
seperate from the whole...to me that is contridictory and
illogical.
You are absolutely correct, and I find that it bothers
me, too. This is one of the things that confuses me about the Psijic
Order. In the “The Myth of Aurbis” section of the The Monomyth, it states that this view is “an
attempt by Artaeum apologists to explain the basics of Aldmeri religion to Uriel V in the early,
glorious part of his reign.” Yet, from what I’ve read about the
Order, it doesn’t match what I believe the Aldmeri believed.
Several lines down it says “The magical beings created the races of the mortal Aurbis in their
own image, either consciously as artists and craftsmen, or as the
fecund rotting matter out of which the mortals sprung forth, or in a
variety of other analogical senses.” Is that an Aldmeri belief?
Also, what confuses me is the fact that the Psijic Order
works with the force of change and was organized to divine PSJJJJ or
Padomay (Source of Chaos). I thought the Aldmeri hated the
change that Lorkhan brought forth and longed for the calm of order
and stasis (perhaps I am thinking of the Altmeri). Maybe the Aldmeri
didn't mind the world of Anu and Padomay, but resented what Lorkhan
had done. Maybe the Order was formed to divine the Old Ways and
their Endeavor is to overcome what was done when the Mundus was
created.
Sorry if I wasn't much help on the Aldmeri issue. I
find it confusing myself.
--------------------
Assistant
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Procurer of Rare and
Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer
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Sheikizza,
When I had said that I was not 'Aware' of a connection, I
didn't mean to imply that there wasn't one. To be completely honest
I am just as confused as everyone else when it comes to the Warp in
the West, but I will bring something up here that is the source of
my own confusion.
First we have the Heart of Lorkhan hidden
deep within Red Mountain, which is discovered by the Dwemer.
Kagrenac devises 'Tools' to tap the Hearts 'Tones' or Power. After
the First Battle of Red Mountain the Tribunal take the Tools, so it
is safe to say that neither Tiber Septim nor Zurin Arctus/Underking
had access to them. Without the Tools, if as you say their is a
connection between the Heart and the Mantella, then how was the
Numidium in the West controlled? How was the power aroused in the
first place?
Second, The 'Heart of Lorkhan' (if that is
really what it is) was discovered by the Dwemer and is obviously a
bit more mysterious in origin (besides various un-substantiated
myths) than the Mantella of Arctus. How did Zurin Arctus know that
the original 'Heart of Lorkhan' could be substituted with a
Powerfully charged soul gem? Perhaps this 'Heart of Lorkhan' is
really just a powerful 'gem' of sorts, and Arctus understood that,
but I find it hard to believe. If you ask me this Numidium in the
West was a counterfiet, and the only thing that Arctus divined from
his studies of the original Numidium was how to create a really big
Animunculi, powered by the trapped soul of one powerful enough to
move such an enormous Animunculi.
How such a Warp in time
could happen I am not sure of, but one thing is for certain, it
happened. This is all I can say for now until I do a bit more
research.
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The Psijic
order has confounded me since I first picked up my copy of
'Morrowind'.
I was astounded, facinated, yet completly
confused by their apparent contridictions and Aldmeri biased views
of existance. Not to mention a good majority of the order are
Cyrodiil and Breton now!
I think after the dissappearance of
the Isle of Artaeum, something happened within that order and since
then their 'actual' views of creation are deliberatly contradictory
in order to keep those outside the Isle ignorant of the true
knowledge they have attained. Deliberate mis-information to keep the
order from degenerating into an institution like the Mages Guild.
With an Isle of Mystics who apparently know how to change
the very weather to their whims, are permanent neighbors to
Oblivion, and can dissappear for ages if they wish are obviously
keeping most of thier knowledge from everyone else.
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Shekizza, are
you at all familiar with the works of Joseph Campbell? I find the
Altmer/human split to be a lot easier to understand in Campbell's
terms. Basially at what Campbell would consider the fourth era of
development of religious thought, there are two reactions to the
creation of the universe, typified in real world terms by such
religions as Buddhism and Gnosticism on the one side and
Christianity on the other side. One regards creation as a horrible
accident; the other regards it as the benevolent act of a benevolent
creator. Depending on which view you take, Lorkhan is either the
devil himself or the source of all that's good. Religions such as
Hinduism and most pagan religions, which regard creation as
encompassing both good and evil, belong to a different stage of
religious development, and don't react to this conflict by dividing
gods into good and evil. The Wood Elves and Khajiit would seem to be
examples of this sort of religion in Tamriel.
The
Anu/Padomay split is between stasis and change, between the
perfection (supposedly) that existed before creation, and the
necessary loss of perfection that comes with differentiation. Many
cultures represent this moment of creation as a sacred act of rape
by which the creator betrayed his own daughter from whom the
substance of the universe is then created; so does Tamrielic
religion, in which Padomay raped Nir, who became the various worlds.
In Tamrielic lore we have an interesting set of recurring
characters; Anu and Padomay; Auriel and Lorkhan; Morihaus and
Pelinal; and so on down to the Underking and Tiber Septim, the
enantiomorph, recurring historic examples of this principle
incarnated as mortal men. So in a sense the Underking IS Lorkhan;
Tiber Septim IS Akatosh. That's the reason that no one can explain
exactly whose soul is inside the Mantella, Septim's or the
Underking's, even though clearly Septim lived for decades after it
was created.
To answer your questions:
1) There are
several broad hints about a Dragon Break, or rift in time.
2)
Azura is not nice; she didn't need any special reason to seek the
destruction of the Tribunal other than the fact that they were
worshippers of hers who offended her personally by an act of hubris.
3) This is a scary question; one possible answer is that the
whole Mundus would collapse and since the Aedra are tied to the
Mundus they didn't want that to happen. Another, hinted at by the
Dunmer, is that Lorkhan may not truly have been an Aedra; if he was
a Daedra, he could only be banished, not killed, so keeping his
heart alive was the best way to immobilise him.
4) From what
information we have about the Warp of the West, it involved the hero
of Daggerfall giving the Mantella to every possible recipient at
once. I note that as a result the Underking is said to have become
active in the affairs of men, which means he lied about dying a
peaceful death.
5) No. No particular sign of one. One version of
events happened; the fact that they are misreported by interested
parties doesn't change that. If there were a Warp, I think Vivec in
particular would be the first to say so, to blame the whole affair
on that.
6) Go talk to Eno whatsit the prophet of doom in
Tribunal.
7) A very good question. My feeling is it went to
Oblivion or something like that. Certainly it could have returned to
Lorkhan... the tales of King Wulfharth seem to suggest such a thing
is possible.
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In reply to:
With an Isle of Mystics who apparently know how to change the
very weather to their whims, are permanent neighbors to Oblivion,
and can dissappear for ages if they wish are obviously keeping
most of thier knowledge from everyone else.
I think that's true. Some have suggested that
Sotha Sil's bargain with the daedra is what caused Artaeum to vanish
for several hundred years. I think it's much more because of Vanus
Galerion's "democratization" (and capitalization) of magic, bringing
some of the secrets of the Psijics off the island. They were
suddenly threatened, and they withdrew. When they came back, the
older master Iachesis was gone, and they were in a different world.
In "The Wolf Queen," Potema mocks the Psijics, saying that their
off-spring the Mages Guild is now much more powerful. Perhaps they
feel their contradictory philosophy lends them some of their old
glamour. Perhaps they are onto something they learned in their time
away from Mundus.
After all, a foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of small minds.
Post Extras: |
| GhanBuriGhan
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| Diviner |
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| Reged: 10/05/01 |
| Posts: 2544 |
| Loc: Switzerland | |
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Straight to
the "heart" of matters, nice post, sheikizza. I would personally
like to challenge the assertion of "Of Aedra and Daedra" of the
"Book of Daedra", that the Aedra can be killed:
"As part of the
divine contract of creation, the Aedra can be killed. Witness
Lorkhan and the moons. "
I think the role of Lorkhans heart
as a decisive force in Tamriel history is testament that this is not
true - maybe a god can be changed, banished or entrapped, but
obviously his force lives on. this seems connected to the idea that
the spirits form as "urges", "sentiments", or "emotions" and are not
entirely shaped or individuals in the beginning (See the Monomyth).
so simply put, it may have been possible to banish Lorkhans shape,
but not the idea (the idea of death and creation).
This is
all nice and philosphical, but it gets complicated enormously that
we have seen the heart as a very concrete entity in the world. But
this could be seen as a symbol of the above idea - the form could be
destroyed, but the heart of the idea remained. In fact his dualism
of missing/being the most palpable agent of change maybe is simply
the appropriate reflection of the principle he represents. If so,
the heart still represents the essence of Lorkhan, and there is some
hints that it is indeed, in many faceted ways, connetcted with
these:
- Creation: of the Akulakhan, of the divine disease, of
the Tribunals godhood, but also of their opponent
- Death: Of
the dwemer, through the actions of Dagoth Ur, through the eruption
of red mountain
- Change: in the constant creation of new gods
or challengers to the established order (Dagoth, the Tribunal,
Kagrenac, Numidium)
Based on these ideas, I think its fairly
safe to say that the heart (or maybe a different manifestation of
the idea of Lorkhan) still exists (in fact we saw it vanish, and
Azura said it was "freed") and will continue to shape and upset the
current order of things.
--------------------
----------//Forum Scholars
guild\\----------
[red]Get "MW
Scripting for Dummies 5" TES scripting manual[/red]
And all
my Mods!
Post Extras: |
| B |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 11/10/01 |
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| Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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In reply to:
Posted by Sheogorath:
I think that's true. Some have
suggested that Sotha Sil's bargain with the daedra is what caused
Artaeum to vanish for several hundred years. I think it's much
more because of Vanus Galerion's "democratization" (and
capitalization) of magic, bringing some of the secrets of the
Psijics off the island. They were suddenly threatened, and they
withdrew. When they came back, the older master Iachesis was gone,
and they were in a different world.
When Iachesis told Sotha Sil that the Isle was leaving
in Book Four of 2920, The Last Year of the First Era,
Sil had no idea. Maybe Iachesis did it because of the deal that was
made, but it wasn’t in the plan that Sil presented to the Daedric
Princes.
I agree with you that Vanus Galerion’s starting of
the Mages Guild may have contributed to the Isle leaving the Sea (Fragment: On Artaeum). Some people have speculated
that the Psijics may have done something similar to what the Dwemer
had done. They also believe that the Order’s return might mean that
the Dwemer may someday return. IF the Psijic Order
accomplished something similar to the Dwemer, it was certainly done
without the Heart. Whether or not there is a connection remains to
be seen.
In reply to:
In "The Wolf Queen," Potema mocks the Psijics, saying that
their off-spring the Mages Guild is now much more powerful.
Perhaps they feel their contradictory philosophy lends them some
of their old glamour. Perhaps they are onto something they learned
in their time away from Mundus.
Yes, I think Potema said that about the Order to get
Iachesis to go along with her plan. It was like she was saying to
him, “You couldn’t help even if you wanted to because the Order
isn’t what is used to be.” Iachesis' pride might have gotten the
best of him, and he agreed to help (The Wolf Queen, Book Four).
--------------------
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer
Post Extras: |
| B |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 11/10/01 |
| Posts: 1570 |
| Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Ghan, I
understand what you are saying, and I agree on many levels. I don’t
think the Heart was destroyed nor have we seen the last of its
effects on the Mundus.
As far as the Aedra being killed, it
is difficult to tell, but I kind of agree with you. I would like
some proof that they can be killed. The only proof offered in the Aedra and Daedra is “Lorkhan and the moons.” But
has Lorkhan really been killed? If you believe the The Monomyth, then “...Lorkhan is separated from
his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation
of the et'Ada.” If he is wandering around looking for his Heart,
then I wouldn't consider him to be dead.
--------------------
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer
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His motives on
creating the Mundus were so people could be put on it. That way, we
would all have 4 great Elder Scrolls games and 1 average one. Just
think what your lives would like if the Mundus wasn't created and
you didn't have those 5 games...
--------------------
Imperial Legion: Knight of the
Imperial Dragon
Imperial Cult: Patriarch
Fighter's Guild:
Master
Telvanni: Archmagister
The One True Nerevarine
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The question
here that interests me the most is:
Why does the tribunal
heresy trouble Azura so much?
1. The tribunal heresy, if not
the cause of the dwarves disappearance, was certainly quite
intermingled with it.
2. Azura's sphere of influence is
"dusk and dawn".
3. Perhaps Azura sees the rise and fall of
the dwarves metaphorically as "dusk and dawn" and has decided this
issue falls under her sphere of influence.
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| Saruman123
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| Initiate |
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Wow, when
azura is the god of dusk and dawn i never really saw it that way,
but if you think abou it, she was invovled in the nereverar's
rise(dawn) and the tribunal's fall(dusk). I'm sure more people could
think of more examples.
--------------------
Member of
the Forum Scholars Guild
Specialty: Vvardenfell Politics
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| ELDRiTcH_TES |
| Adept |
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| Reged: 02/09/03 |
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I think it is
better thinking of it this way: The fall of Nerevar, and the rise of
the Tribunal (dusk). The rebirth of Nerevar, and the fall of the
Tribunal (dawn). This makes more sense to me.
--------------------
The glories of our blood and
state
Are shadows, not substantial things;
There is no
armour against fate;
Death lays his icy hands on kings. - James
Shirley
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| Durandel
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| Novice |
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Well
Sheikizza, what's your proto-theory? I'd like to hear it.
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